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whats up from the EC

Discussion in 'Member Introductions' started by Bimmerdude3, Nov 15, 2010.

    Bimmerdude3 guest

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    Whats up another east coast bimmerhead.


    I was wondering whether CCA does open "sunday" track days, how often and for how much? Should I refer to my local chapter for this?
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    steven s

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    Chapters do not have open lapping days. Some tracks do offer open days but normally after some sort of checkout unless you are a member of that track.
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    MGarrison

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    Various chapters across the country do offer full weekend organized driver's schools. Great way to build your skillset with 1-on-1 in-car coaching from highly-experienced volunteer instructors, get in some good track time in well-run events, & have some fun in the process to boot.

    Check your local chapter's website for details; generally, many chapters with access to quality track venues may run 1-4 weekends, and costs vary, but I think these days generally hover in the +- $400 mark.

    Bimmerdude3 guest

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    Oh nice, didn't know they were that cheap.
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    shipkiller

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    If you really want to get into track days, then there are two websites that coordinate various track events around the country.

    http://www.motorsportreg.com/
    http://www.trackschedule.com/

    Just sign up (FREE) and select your filters, like mileage from your zip and then register for the event you want to attend.

    Prices that I have seen go from around $250 to $450 for a day or weekend events.
    Unless you are signed off as a solo driver, then a instructor is provided as part of the price.

    I have a track weekend scheduled for Nov 28-29 coming up at VIR. I personally like the two day events.
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    MGarrison

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    Assigned instructors are one of the key elements in BMWCCA driver's schools providing both a safe and quality event for everyone involved. There are many groups, clubs, and organizations out there offering track days and track time in various ways; I don't think it's a given that every one of them offers, or can offer, 1-on-1 in-car instruction & feedback for the whole of a participant's track time, as 'CCA schools do.

    Of course there's many options - BMWCCA driver's schools are among the best values, in my opinion, when you consider the combination of quality instruction, (both in-car and in-class), track-time, and organization. Plus, particularly with the economy as it is, any 'CCA chapter putting on event counts on members' attendance and support, as driver's schools are expensive events for any chapter - track rental fees aren't getting any smaller! I know it's a plug, but 'CCA schools in their entirety are organized and run by volunteer enthusiasts, for both the benefit and fun of the other enthusiasts who attend them, and I feel it's worthwhile for any club member to keep the various 'CCA chapter offerings in mind when considering an allocation of $$ for a track weekend. ;)

    Bimmerdude3 guest

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    Im all for feeding the pot, spreading the wealth. I do plan on attending some events I just usually valued a part to fix my always something broken ride vs a driviing school. Im gunna check the sites out and see what I can find.

    1996 328ti guest

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    Then you will love a 4-day event @ VIR.

    Thursday, Friday June 9-10, 2011 (full course) joint school with BMW-MB-Audi and MazdaDrivers.com usually has a school the following weekend.
    Both well run events.

    Bimmerdude3 guest

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    Any interesting events up north around NY; limrock, the glen, pcoono, etc that anybody is going to?
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    MGarrison

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    I think the Genesee Valley chapter does events at the Glen, Connecticut Valley does Lime Rock, and the Allegheny chapter does Pocono... check the websites for the North Atlantic Region BMWCCA chapters.

    http://bmwcca.org/index.php?pageid=chapter_finder

    Most in the north have wrapped it up for the season by this time of year, resuming again next spring sometime (generally).
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    shipkiller

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    This will be my last track event until spring. I have done four, two day events so far this year. Two at VIR, one at Summit Point and one at NCCAR.

    The event I will be at on the 28th-29th will be good. Sunday is the Patriot Course with SkidPad Training. Monday is Full Course VIR.. What a way to close out the year.

    Mr. Garrison,

    I completely disagree with you about what I assume are your assumptions and prejudice's about all other driving events being not equal to the quality of a BMWCCA event.

    Although I have never been to a BMWCCA sanctioned event (but want to attend one), I feel you are doing a great disservice to other equally good groups that put on a rewarding track weekend. You sound more like an advertisement..........

    Every event I have been to since I started HPDE's has been excellent, rewarding and absolutely worth every penny I paid. Every group I have had the privilege to drive with has had excellent one-on-one instruction. Hell, I even had a Grand-AM driver as an instructor at one event.

    Although I have never experienced it, I have heard of some groups that have taken a caviler attitude to the subject of driver instruction, but I also here that this is the exception rather than the rule.

    My group of choice is Asphalt Ventures. Along with the top notch staff and instructors, every AV weekend has had Peter Krause as the class room instructor.
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    CRKrieger

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    As well he should. Marshall is a veteran of many schools, as am I. I don't know if he has attended non-club schools, but I have. While there are other schools with the quality of a BMW CCA school, I know of none that offer the same 'bang for the buck'. Professional schools with paid instructors usually cannot meet the price point that a 'CCA school does. I see that Asphalt Ventures only works as far north as VIR, so it isn't a top choice for someone looking in New England/New York.
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    MGarrison

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    Assumptions, indeed.

    You said:

    Your statement makes it sound as if ALL driving events, everywhere, from everybody who offers them, provides instructors (and/or instruction in any form), or provides assigned 1-on-1 instructors.

    In my response, I was pointing out that I thought (i.e., in my opinion) that everyone who offers driving events does not necessarily, or is even able to, offer assigned 1-on-1 in-car instructors. I was also pointing out the BMWCCA schools, or perhaps more specifically, the driving schools hosted by BMWCCA chapters, do offer 1-on-1 in-car instruction. I also asserted this format makes, (most importantly), the events safer for the participants. I did not delineate the aspects of this format that make for "quality", but to clarify that point, one advantage of having a 1-on-1 in-car instructor to coach a driver for the whole of their track time is the driver receiving immediate & nuanced feedback allowing the driver the maximum time to work on whatever that driver may need to or want to work on, &/or whatever an instructor may perceive needs working on. Thus providing a quality 'bang-for-the-buck' (to borrow CR's words) for the students who are paying for the bulk of the school.

    Hopefully the above clarifies exactly what I said (and am re-quoting) below:

    Now to...

    Please point out exactly where I said all other events are not equal to BMWCCA events, or the quality thereof.

    All I said, in essence, was that it is not an absolute fact that all who offer driving events offer instructors, and that BMWCCA schools do, and that contributes both to the quality & safety of 'CCA schools. There is no categorical negative statement therein about any others or their events, or some assertion of BMWCCA driving-event-quality superiority to all others. Not having instructors doesn't mean an event isn't a 'quality' event, however one chooses to define quality; my point was to clarify to the OP to consider that, if considering a track day or weekend offered by an entity other than a 'CCA chapter, that it might be possible to find one among the sources you listed that doesn't provide 1-on-1, in-car, assigned instructors. I was also pointing out a couple of the reasons why he might consider having an in-car instructor advantageous, and to consider supporting the 'CCA chapter-hosted events.

    Your apparent assumption of a negative inference from my statement is a flaw in logic; it's analogous to my saying "Go USA!" and you replying with "You said all the rest of the countries of the world suck!". No, in reality, all that was said was "Go USA!", and it doesn't make much sense to suggest, or try to infer anything else, otherwise. At least, not without making unwarranted & unverifiable assumptions.

    Here's the rest of what I said:

    To continue...

    Again, I made no statement of any kind or in any way denigrating any others that offer driving events, nor did I assert that BMWCCA driving events are superior in quality to ALL others. I did say that the club's schools are AMONG the best VALUES when considered on the whole. That is completely different than some assertion that the 'CCA events are THE best option, which I certainly did not say. Furthermore, I qualified my statement by stating that it's just MY OPINION. If I was making an absolute statement, I would have to back that up with evidence and a survey of all who offer events in some sort of qualitative research study and evaluation, which I neither have, nor will. 'CCA chapters, generally speaking, (in my opinion, just to be clear...) do an excellent job conducting their track-driving events, as do many others offering track events as well.

    It's not my problem if you don't like how I sound; after all, I'm not here on the forums or the planet to particularly make you or anybody else happy. Also, I qualified my last sentence by saying "it's a plug", so I think it's rather obvious, it was a plug! Is there something wrong with suggesting that a club member consider supporting club events, particularly driving schools, if that's what they have an inclination towards? It's this simple - if the 'CCA chapters don't get enough students to attend and pay for the events they either:

    a. lose a substantial amount of money &/or risk chapter bankruptcy (even though BMWCCA and its chapters are non-profit, they need to break-even on expensive events like drivers schools)

    b. have to cancel the event, or

    c. forfeit running the events altogether.

    Since I enjoy at least the availability of the host of club & chapter sponsored driving events, I want to see them succeed and be able to continue; therefore I have no problem with suggesting a club member at least consider BMWCCA driver's schools among all the available options, if they're thinking about it at all. Again, just to be clear, suggesting someone consider BMWCCA driver's schools among the available pool of options is not a suggestion to consider BMWCCA events exclusively, or that other events are bad, or anything else; it is solely a suggestion to consider them if one is considering them at all.

    Since you don't know me personally or in any way at all, I would suggest you not assume anything about me, including what bias or prejudice(s) you might presume I have, or whether I actually have any particular bias or prejudice at all, unless you have something more to go on than your own presumptive interpretation of a few sentences I happen to post up on the club's national internet forums here.

    I'm glad your HPDE experiences have been excellent so far, and I have every confidence you'll find the same when you get to a 'CCA school.

    Have a Happy Thanksgiving, and at least just as importantly, a safe and fun weekend at VIR for the closing event of your season.
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    shipkiller

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    Mr. Garrison

    I do apologize if my post sounded like a personal attack. It was not meant to be.

    When I read it, it sounded like (my interpretation) of the BMW Fan boy club coming out to play. After reading your rebuttal, I realized that I was mistaken and for this again, I apologize.

    I do concur on several of your points.

    This is a good example of where someone can be taken out of context because we are not face to face in our discussion.

    Sorry to have angered you.
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    MGarrison

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    I appreciate your gracious apology and thank you for it. Since I have been attending BMWCCA driving schools for the last 25 years, of course I am a proponent of the 'CCA driving programs and events. I think CR's been doing them longer than that. But neither am I so singular nor narrow-minded as to suggest that 'CCA driver's schools are the only or best out there, particularly when there are so many options to choose from these days. I wouldn't have said there are many other options if I was trying to minimize them in some fashion.

    The BMWCCA schools have a long-standing history and well-deserved reputation for efficiently-run, well-organized, safe, affordable events with high-quality instruction. The details have been honed into a finely-tuned, successful model ever since club schools were started in 1974. I've enjoyed them, as have countless others, as, presumably, will you. If how I expressed my opinions in my earlier response may have been cause for misunderstanding, I apologize in that regard.

    Hope the weather's decent @ VIR, & keep the shiny side up.
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    CRKrieger

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    Actually, not. Watkins Glen in '88 was my first. I got wait-listed by Buckeye Chapter for a couple before that, so it might have been 25 ... :(
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    Satch SoSoCalifortified

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    Jeez, Garrison, lighten up!

    You have to understand that more than a few of us in this forest are BMW CCA instructors, and we tend to get a bit thin-skinned about our schools. We have spent decades developing a curriculum that works for 67 separate chapters, and I think we tend to be a little proud of ourselves.

    It's a tough market. On the West Coast, there is any number of outfits that will take your money and turn you loose on a race track. In fact, that is the only way I can burn the tires off my roadster, as open-top cars are anathema to the BMW CCA. And there is a certain population of drivers who are more interested in freeing their inner delinquent than in learning the boring physics of high-performance driving; "Why would I want to spend time as a D-Group student at your school when Drive It Like You Stole It Inc will let me drive as fast as I want. . . without some geezer weighing down the right seat?!"

    However, my feedback from students has been nearly unanimous: Nothing has better prepared them for driving a BMW quickly with comfort, consistency, and control than a CCA school. And since I have been a student or an instructor at other schools, incuding Pitarresi, Bondurant, and Winfield, I have had at least a gander at other methods of instruction.

    Any genuine school will be focused on instruction. I tend to be leery of any group that is more intent on "track days" than proper instruction. And I am one of those who are adamantly opposed to signing off students so they can go out there solo and reinforce their bad habits.

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