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Should Botond go 330is or stay 325es?

Discussion in 'E30 (1984-1993)' started by Autohaus, Mar 10, 2009.

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S50 or keep it M20?

S50?!?! Heck yeah, whatever it takes! 1 vote(s) 12.5%
S50?!?! At least $5K for the whole job but its his money. 2 vote(s) 25.0%
Keep the 325es how it is and enjoy it. 4 vote(s) 50.0%
Take that money and $ave for your own place. 1 vote(s) 12.5%
    • Member

    granthr

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    Botond:

    Did you look at the classifieds in this month's Roundel? I just got it yesterday. There are some cheap E36 M3s in there! One is $5,500 and another is $7K. Not to make your decision any more complicated!!! :D :D
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    mooseheadm5

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    Botond: I'd like to get a personal loan
    Banker: Do you have collateral?
    Botond: I have a 22 year old car.
    Banker: Do you own a house?
    Botond: Not as such, no.
    Banker: Do you have a steady job?
    Botond: I am a contract worker that can be let go at any time.
    Banker: Okaaaay. Um, what would this be for?
    Botond: So I can put a super kickazz 240HP monster engine in my 22 year old car.
    Banker: <laughing>
    Botond: But it's an S50!
    Banker: <gasping for air laughing, falls on floor>
    Botond: Is that a yes?

    So you can see how that might not work. Even if you could get a loan, I suspect it would be from a place like New Day Fianancial and they would charge you 25% interest at least.
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    granthr

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    Paul LOL!!!! I use to be a banker!! This is very true. I had a kid (although I wasn't much older at the time!) come in one time and wanted a loan for an E36 M3. The M3 was less than five years old at the time. I had to hand to to him for his good taste, but I know where that road ends. I had to deny the poor kid even after his mom offered to co-sign and hand over the title to her POS suburban. I had the feeling I wasn't the first to deny him.
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    MGarrison

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    The Frog was looking at his rather plain and somewhat dilapidated lily pad one day and decided he would like to fix it up. However, realizing that he had very little money, he thought the project might take more than he had and that he might need a small loan. So, off to the bank he went.

    He got to the bank, got in line, and when he stepped up to the teller's cage, he saw the teller's name was Ms. Whack, and that her first name was Patty.

    She asked how she could help the frog, and he explained that he wanted to fix up his lily pad and would need a loan to do so. She explained that it might be possible for him to get a loan, but that he would have to have some collateral. "What's collateral?" asked the Frog, as he didn't know what that was. Ms. Whack explained "Well, if we lend you money, you have to give us something of some value to guarantee your intention of paying us back your loan."

    The Frog said that he didn't think he had very much, but he would try to get something for collateral, and come back. So, he went back to his lily pad, and gathered up a few miscellaneous things he had sitting around, and headed back to the bank. When he got there, he got back up to Ms. Whack, and showed her these few small things and asked if that would work for the loan. Ms. Whack said "Well, I don't know, let me go check with our manager." and took the several items over and showed them to her manager.

    And do you know what the manager said??

    "It's a knick-knack, Patty Whack; Give the Frog a loan."

    :p:p:D
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    Satch SoSoCalifortified

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    Go for it!

    The S50 is my favoritest M3 engine. Okay, I still love the art of the S14, and the intricate chaos of the S54-but the S50 is actually civilized, in U.S. trim. The Europeans actually covet this motor because it's easier to run on the streets than the overstressed, finicky Euro motor, and it had better down-low torque.

    As the owner of the single most expensive E30 in the history of BMW and the House of Dinan, I say you gots t'be true to yer dream. Mine was to have a 325iX with 350 useful horsepower, but 240 makes for a very, very nice E30. . . .

    I couldn't build mine today, of course, because they've stopped sending those new Visa cards every two weeks or so. . . .

    :D :D :D
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    TeamStowell We love driving!

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    Gosh Botond, I leave the area for three days and Bev's M3's front brakes decide they want to be replaced with brand new Turner parts and you lose your mind! I'm sitting in my hotel room in Washington, learning United Tech is killing thousands of jobs and reading you are taking out a loan for an ambitious upgrade project.

    If you must you must, but the "father" in me says unless you have six months of emergency money saved up and no debt you should not be thinking about this... in my humble opinion.
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    az3579

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    Oh Christ.

    I'm only selling things I absolutely don't need. I would be selling them regardless of whether or not I'm doing this or not.

    The loan isn't because "I wanna do this now!"; it's not like I will die if I don't swap it before fall. It would only be so that I wouldn't have to have it done in the winter. I can do this without a loan, I was just toying with the idea. The world will not end it if doesn't go in before fall!!!!



    This will become a long-term project if need be so STOP assuming I'm being irresponsible with my money! I have a budget for this, it's not like I'm spending my every dime on it. :mad:
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    mooseheadm5

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    I really think you should do the swap. I just think you should also realize what you are getting into. I am 31 now and I have been jobless, homeless, without insurance, had a $3500 doctor bill from a small shop accident (table saw,) lived in dives, had a motorcycle and no car (and at one point had neither legally,) lost license, and generally been through all sorts of crap. Now I have a steady job (well, two) a house, a wife, several cars and motorcycles, etc. and have had to work really hard for all of it and kind of wish I had saved more when I was younger. I think I could have more of what I want now if I had spent less then. At this point I wouldn't buy that S50 for my E30 even though I could make it happen for less than $2k. I wouldn't buy that one unless I could lay my hands on it for ~$1000-$1500. These motors are not rare and therefore not really all that valuable. Remember that the 95 M3 outsold ALL of Porsche. If I were you I would start to accumulate all the other stuff you know you will need and be willing to travel to get a cheaper motor (you get a vacation that way too.) There are a few S52s on the bay that are cheaper than this one, and one S50 going for $500 right now.

    I think this one is a better deal. You would get the cats and the trans, you can make an offer, but you would need to fiddle with the ECU setup a little more than an S50. With an OBD1 intake swap, it would make even more power. I would offer a bit less money than they are asking, though.

    http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/BMW-M3-S52-3-2L-Complete-Engine-5spd-Manual-Swap_W0QQitemZ180334108833QQcmdZViewItemQQptZMotors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories?hash=item180334108833&_trksid=p4506.c0.m245&_trkparms=72%3A1171|65%3A12|39%3A1|240%3A1318

    BTW, you can save some cash by replacing the gaskets on the donor motor yourself. It is a cinch while the motor is sitting waiting for you to gather other parts (same goes for t-stat and housing and water pump.) You could replace the head gasket too, but I wouldn't if I were you unless you felt like learning a lot at once and had the extra money (I would if I were me and had the money, though.) Not a bad idea to do the rear main seal since it is a bugger to get to with the motor in the car. You should invest in both a top and bottom end gasket set even though you will not be using them all at once. You can sit on the rest of the gaskets until you need them. Do this regardless of anything else you want to do. Replace any small vacuum hoses regardless of what they look like and replace all idle air/crank breather hoses because some of them are such a pain to get to with the intake in place. New fuel hoses (buy BMW or Benz hose, not that crap you get at the auto parts store unless you want an engine fire.)

    Autohaus guest

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    LOL4ever.

    Great, now this poor soul that you denied is driving around in a Honda!

    Brutal but great.

    Botond, we are this way because we care unlike the punks on bimmerforums. I know you don't have the room but if you did I bet you wouldn't mind having a E36 M3 for the price of doing this engine swap. I'll tell you what. Buy a 95 M3 and I'll keep your Edirty in my driveway until you get your own place with room to put 2 cars. Remember, real men have at least two (2) cars!

    How much out the door can you sell Botond a S50/S52 with all he needs?
    • Member

    az3579

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    Thank you Paul. That's the kind of advice I need. I didn't even think about the fact that I could do all these little things myself while it's sitting. It is sooooo easy to do this stuff with the engine just sitting there. I was going to have the engine sit from where I bought it, but if I try to make some room in the garage, I could store it here, and replace all those necessary bits on my own time. Genious!

    As far as travelling goes; well, we'd have to keep it at a minimum. The engine I bought is exactly 30 minutes away, which is completely reasonable and a major part of why I bought this particular engine. The other bit is that if you were to see the car, the car was immaculate. There were new parts all over the car, the interior was mint, and you could really tell the guy took care of his car (until someone smashed the front right corner up). Sure, S50's aren't rare by any means, but one that has been driven just a touch over 8k a year (helluva low mileage to me) AND taken very good care of? It's a no brainer to me.

    Yes, that $3200 deal on eBay is something to think about, but an S52 requires more work to get it working. If possible, I'd like to reuse my Getrag 260, but if absolutely necessary (and I mean only if necessary), I will get the ZF 5-speed from the M3. Maybe if I get a good deal then I'll just get it just to be safe, but that's if I get a good deal. Maybe he'll be willing to part with the tranny at a reduced price?

    I do know that I'll need a driveshaft and it would be easier to use the M3 driveshaft with the ZF 5-speed, but ... we'll see.

    My list so far of things that need to be purchased (not including maintenance items on the engine itself):
    * E34 525i oil pan
    * 318ti or E30 325i radiator
    * 325ix or 735i brake booster
    * E34 M5 brake master (25mm) cylinder if using the ix booster or a 735i master cyl. if using the E21 modded booster
    * E30 325 crossmember
    * E28 M5 or 535is transmission mounts
    * E30 M3 or E36 M3 driveshaft

    I'm sure there are other things as well but this is as far as I've gotten.


    I'm in for the ride now.

    Chris, it wasn't a smart move starting this thread. ^^ That post from Paul should have been in the "proper" thread!



    Let's please continue technical advise and such in the correct thread.
    Thanks...
    • Member

    MGarrison

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    Y'know Chris, you could get some extra income by renting a room to Botond, Botond could get out of the house, and for less than renting a whole apartment..... everybody wins!! :p :p (well ok, so you'd probably have an S50 sitting on an engine stand in the middle of the living room, but you know.. whatever works..!)
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    mooseheadm5

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    Crossmember? Unless you mean one modified to tilt your trans?
    Driveshaft? If you use your trans, you will keep your driveshaft. If you use your trans you will need to mod the shift linkage and mod/mess around with the trans crossmember.
    You can buy a used brake booster on ebay or from a junkyard.
    Need to make harness to connect S50 harness to M20 body harness. This can be bought for lots of money from THR.
    I'll give you a used ti radiator if you buy me a coolant tank for E36 325/M3 radiator :) (not really a fair trade for you, though.) I will tell you that the ti rad should be big enough to support the stock HP, but not sure about anything above that. No problems on wifey's car, but it may be easier to go with the 6cyl rad because then you don't need to make hoses like I did.

    Autohaus guest

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    He would get either the basement or the attic. $300 per month is a fair deal. BTW, my contacts aren't on and I lost my glasses. I am typing blind :(. My wife would leave me if she saw an engine in the living room!
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    az3579

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    Not sure. I saw this part pop up in conversation numerous times on r3v.

    Same as above. People are saying to use an E36 M3 driveshaft if using the ZF tranny because it mounts up perfectly (4-holes)? I haven't seen too much mention of using the Getrag, but then again, I'm only a couple of pages into the 50+ page thread... :rolleyes:

    Yep. It's not like a brake booster is a wear-and-tear item; those last for a very very long time, am I correct?

    Someone I know makes a harness and includes it in his labor cost. Right now I'm trying to decide on who's going to do the swap: The BMW tech with no E30 swap experience but plenty of experience in other swaps and everything else (and has access to parts wholesale from the dealer he works at and could have parts within a couple of business days). Price he mentioned is pretty cheap but I don't think he knows what he's getting himself into... (lives very close though, major plus)
    or
    A guy who has done a couple of S52 swaps into E30's including his own. Lives well over 2 hours away, knows how to make a correct harness adapter, is very knowledgable about this particular swap, but will do it for a higher price (and I don't know what other experience he has in modding things to make them work). His price is still very good compared to what a shop would charge, and he takes a payment plan on the labor costs, which is a huge plus. I think he'll be the one doing my swap, but I'm still undecided.






    As far as the radiator goes, I'll just get a 6-cyl. That is what I was thinking, but people are saying that they run the 318ti rad just fine on very hot summer days.

    z31maniac guest

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    E34 Pan, you also need the pickup, dipstick tube and dipstick
    E30 LATE MODEL (late 88+) 6 cyl radiator, the early i doesn't have the correct hose locations or expansion tank
    Master cylinder, this doesn't need to be changed. Putting a bigger master cylinder on the car is only going to decrease pedal travel while INCREASING pedal effort.

    Trans options:
    Getrag 260 = E30 mounts, modded crossmember and shift linkage.
    Getrag 250 (E36, 325 trans) = E28 trans mounts, reducer bushings on the flex disc, as the E36 has the same bolt patter but uses 12mm bolts instead of the E30 10mm bolts.
    ZF trans = E28 mounts, 328 or 96+M3 or E30 M3 driveshaft with E30 CSB.

    Don't forget that the E36 trans do not have overdriven 5th gears, they are 1:1 vs ~.82:1 on the E30. Most E30 swap guys run a 3.73 with the Getrag 260 (although mine will still have a 4.10 for a bit, insanity), most guys with E36 trans run in the 3.15-3.25 range, some run a 3.46.

    E28 and late model E24 diffs swap in if you change the output flanges and diff cover to the E30 pieces, opening up a big range of ratios available.


    S52 isn't really any more difficult, you can run the M50 manifold (where the power in the OBD-I swap comes from) with he OBD-II electronics. Have TMS do a back O2 sensor, EWS, smog pump delete and you can still make the E30 chassis talk to the OBD-II harness. There are a couple threads on www.r3vlimited.com about this right now.

    Go ahead and get the rack too, then you don't need to bend P/S lines, and you significantly quicken up the ratio. RobertK will make the knuckle adapter you need for around $75.
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    mooseheadm5

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    I have a 3.25 on the 325ti and it is about perfect (1:1 fifth.) If I wanted to go nuts, a 3.73 would be the most I'd run. The ti had the stock 4.44 for a few days and it was fun, but I think it would redline at 90. The 2.93 will be OK for a while with your stock trans, but I'd go with a 3.25 or 3.46.
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    az3579

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    What do you mean by 1:1 ratio? What does this mean compared to the getrag?
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    granthr

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    1:1 5th gear means that the input shaft from the motor and the output shaft to the final drive are rotating at the same rate. An over drive 5th means that the output shaft is spinning faster than the input shaft. Or for every .82 turn on the input the output turns once.

    So this effects what you need for a final drive. With a 1:1 5th gear you will need a lower numerical final drive (in other words a higher geared final drive).
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    mooseheadm5

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    Your Getrag 260 has a 1:1 4th gear, so if you were to drive around in 4th all the time, that would be the same as 5th on the 250 gear box.
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    mooseheadm5

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