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Ouch

Discussion in 'E36 M3 (1995-1999)' started by Scott Mc, Dec 28, 2008.

    Scott Mc guest

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    Happy holidays to all. 1995 E36 M3 missed shift. over revved, rear tires light up, engine light, stall, clatter, white smoke. Any ideas as to how bad this could be(the car not my driving)?

    thanks for any input

    Devilsown guest

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    I hate to be the bearer of bad new BUT It might be as bad as a rebiuld... I remember the repair shop telling me this when we bought our e36 m3 (97) , they warned us of mis shifts and over revving and pop goes the engine.

    M3Driver guest

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    What is fondly referred to as the "money shift". :(
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    mooseheadm5

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    My brother over at Road Race Technologies has dealt with some money shifted M3s in his work. I believe that usually the result is a few kissed valves. If you went over 8krpm or more, it could have damaged the bottom end as well or broken a cam or two. I know the S54 comes apart around 8400rpm. I recommend a compression test as well as a check for oil in coolant and coolant in oil. Where are you located? You should really find a good independent BMW tech to look at the car for you.

    Scott Mc guest

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    Everyone, thanks for the information. I kind of figured it was going to be critical if not terminal. I will find out tomorrow when she heads to the shop. I figure I was at 5500 to 6000 when i shifted from 3rd to 2nd (wow that sounds really stupid). So i would guess I am going to be close to terminal velocity. Money shift, very humorous. It does make me feel better that enough people have done it that it has a name.

    Any ideas on a range of costs associated with this. At what point am i better off looking into a new engine versus rebuild?
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    az3579

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    Depending on what's shot, you are probably just better off with a new engine. Engines for your car are "cheap enough", but if the damage isn't that extensive to fix and costs less than another engine, I'd say a rebuild. Start with a fresher motor. :)
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    mooseheadm5

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    If it just kissed a few valves, then I would just get the head freshened up or buy a replacement head. If it damaged a cam or lifter, definitely replacement head, and if it really killed a valve or two, just drop in a new motor and sell me your trashed one. Cost depends on local rate and exactly what is toast. Figure 1-2 hours for compression test and scan plus any other diagnostics that can be performed with the motor together. Tell them if they pull a plug and it is obliterated to stop right there and find a motor. 20-25 hours for a motor swap, 8-15 hours (depends on the shop) for a head swap + any head disassembly (that may be included if the shop has the skills and tools to do it, otherwise they would send the head to a machine shop.) Let us know how bad it is, and I will see if my brother has any parts you may need. Where are you? If you are close to DC, I'd say take it to him. I am told he undercharges :)

    Scott Mc guest

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    I am in Nashville. My shop just pulled the cover off the top today. Cams appear fine. the bars at the back of the cam by the fire wall are not in alignment. The motor will turn over. They think that the variable valve timing at the front of the engine with the cam chains (is this the vanos) may need to be replaced and the cams realigned. Could I be this lucky? The bmw experts will look at it tomorrow. Any thoughts on this? I am not a mechanic and am paraphrasing from the guys at the shop. I will have to wait on a final answer until they can do a little more digging.

    Just curious what does a new motor cost.
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    az3579

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    Prices vary at local junkyards, but on eBay you could snatch one up for about 3 grand in good condition.

    I don't see any S50's at the moment, but I do see a couple of S52's for between 2000-2500$.
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    mooseheadm5

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    You cannot tell unless they TDC the motor and zero out the VANOS to tell if the cams are lined up. Since the motor stopped abruptly it did not have time to come back to the rest position. You will need to do a compression and/or leakdown test to see if any valves are bent. Unless the cam chains skipped, the VANOS should be OK. There is not much there that can be damaged by the money shift (but you never know.) Not 100% certain there, but the specialists should be able to fix you up. Brand new motor is prohibitively expensive. Find out what is wrong with it and give roadracetech.com a call (my brother, James) to see if they have anything lying around.
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    Bimmerdan

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    I feel for you Scott, I cringe every time I hear about another moneyshift (and you would be amazed at how often it happens in the E36 M3's!!). It happens so much that bimmerforums.com actually did a poll to see how many people have done it and what it cost them to get it fixed. Check it out, you'll see you are definitely not alone!!

    http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=210745

    You should definitely call RRT though, they may be able to give you some ideas of things to check that the other shop may not know about. Good luck and let us know the outcome!
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    CRKrieger

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    Well, everyone has chimed in on the potential cost. Now, for the driving aspect.

    Which way was your palm pointed when you shifted? I forget whether it's a Bondurant book or a Barber book that discusses where your hand should be when shifting through the gears. 'On top of the shifter' is never correct, at least if you're revving near the redline. The summary (for standard 5-speed):

    First to second: Palm toward your thigh; fingers wrapped around front of shifter; pull directly toward yourself.

    Second to third: Palm pointing away from you; fingers loose; push away from you.

    Third to fourth: Palm pointing toward passenger seat; fingers wrapped around front of shifter; pull back while pushing away from you.

    Fourth to fifth: Same as 2-3 upshift.

    Downshifts are obviously the reverse, with pulls toward you instead of pushes away.

    The main point is to shift pushing or pulling toward a corner of the pattern, not straight forward or back toward where you think the gate is.

    Scott Mc guest

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    I have been out of town for new years. Due to the holidays the shop has not really gotten started yet. I was in a left right left turn coming into a straight (closed course nothing illegal) when I pulled 2nd instead of 4th. I was slightly off angle due to the turn which resulted in 2nd instead of 4th and the now infamous money shift. I am guessing that if i did that 100 times i would have gotten it right 99 out of 100 times. Its just that 1 that really hurts. I will keep you all posted as I find out more info. Maybe I should just stick to drag racing my GS 455 I cant money shift a turbo 400 (although with my recent luck maybe I could find a way).

    Happy new year.
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    mooseheadm5

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    You call James at RRT yet?
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    Lonestar5

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    If you will need to replace the engine maybe now is the time to put a V8 from the new M3 into it.
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    az3579

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    Like he'd be able to afford that? :rolleyes:

    Scott Mc guest

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    bimmer dan, wow, very enlightening web site. Cr Kreiger thanks for the shifting pointers. I will incorporate them in my driving. Bottom line there are a lot of people who suck at shifting as bad I as i do. If i did not laugh I would cry.
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    az3579

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    I forgot to bring this up:


    Doesn't this hurt you? I can't use these techniques without hurting my hand in some way. I tried them today and it just doesn't work right...
    It's not very ergonomic to twist your hand in some odd way. Am I picturing this incorrectly?

    I saw a site, I think it was UUC's site, that has a guide on how to shift properly. That web page was exactly what I tried to do today, but I simply can't do it without it hurting.
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    CRKrieger

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    Well, my description was to get the idea across. No; the palm doesn't have to be pointed directly at the passenger seat, but your hand does need to be on your side of the shifter for the 3-4 shift. It needs to be on the far side of the shifter for the 3-2. That way, it holds it against the side of the shifter gate so it doesn't cross neutral when it shouldn't, or pulls it through neutral when it should.

    That said, though, your biggest mistake was shifting in a turn - for more reasons than you missed the proper gate. You need to find a gear that works all the way through the combination you describe or, at worst, time your shift for when the car is going straight and you are not off-balance.

    Scott Mc guest

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    Back in action

    12 bent exhaust valves, head bolt set, valve springs, upper valve washers, spring protectors, valve grind gasket set, upper and lower tensioners, freshened head, etc etc and $3,353.00 later she runs like a champ.

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