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New member with 2000 528i fuel problem

Discussion in 'E39 (1997-2003)' started by 460098, May 20, 2013.

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    460098

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    Any problems with fuel pump or transfer pump issues on 2000 528i's. My problem started with the car indicating slightly less than a half a tank of fuel but stopping in the middle of the interstate. Not a good thing. The description of all that transpired is lenghty so for now I will leave it out but I have replaced two fuel pumps and the last repair was a transfer pump which may or may not have cleared the problem. I am afraid to drive it below that half tank mark to test it. Stopping in the middle of the interstate or even on a local street is not something I want to do... stopping ever 200 miles to fill up isn't either.
    A little help would be appreciated.
    Thanks,
    Bruce Wayne Rasco
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    charlson89

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    First welcome to the club, and did you replace the fuel level sensors with the new pumps?
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    460098

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    Sorry to say but "What's fuel Sensor"? I said it was a lenghty explanation but I will try and shorten it. I had the first pump installed at a "Certified BMW repair shop"...I asked for OEM parts. I've had a little bit of a problem with repairs here and confidence is way low. Ok so that shop replaced the fuel pump and I have no idea about sensors; the repair lasted 20 miles. I called AAA and they took it to Tom Williams BMW dealership here in Birmingham. They said...Fuel Pump, I explained what had already happened and they said...Fuel Pump so I got them to replace the pump again. When they removed the pump from the repair shop it was aftermarket. We left Birmingham for a road trip to Pennsylvania and it made it 350 miles and stopped outside of Bristol. Again AAA took it to Hill BMW dealership in Kingsport, Tn. and they said it was the transfer pump. I am not satisfied it is repaired and don't want to get on the interstate or even a local street and have the thing just stop. First it is dangerous and secondly it is embarrassing. How can I ensure the repair is complete without just driving it almost dry and taking a chance.
    I do get the idea of what a fuel sensor might be but no one mentioned that and I didn't know to ask. This vehicle was purchased in 2000 with a little over 2000 miles and it has been well maintained; just not driven very much over the last two years.
    I told you it was lengthy
    Wayne Rasco
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    460098

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    By the way...Thanks for the welcome.
    Wayne Rasco
    First time and navigation is a little tricky.
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    MGarrison

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    Yes, welcome to the club & forums!

    A fuel level sensor/sender measures the level of fuel in your fuel tank and passes the measurement to the car's electronics as your fuel level.

    In the diagram in the following link, the fuel level sensors are parts #2 & #6; the little trapezoidal-shaped things hanging off the wires to the sides of each are the floats.

    http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?model=DM63&mospid=47585&btnr=16_0209&hg=16&fg=15

    IF these were the problem, the issue would be the fuel gauge not showing the right fuel level, and you'd be running the tank completely dry, and stopping due to running out of gas.

    So, one question, although we can't answer it but perhaps you can, is: when they replaced the fuel pumps, was there gas left in the tank? If not, I'd tend to think they'd say that, as you would need some gas added back just to drive away after the repairs were completed. If you had no gas in the tank, it seems kinda a no-brainer to check &/or replace the fuel level senders, particularly since they would _see_ the tank was empty when they pulled one of the senders to replace the fuel pump. If there was plenty of gas left in tank and you just quit running, the fuel senders would plainly not be the problem - at least, so it would seem... and, that doesn't mean you won't have them quit working sometime in the future!

    However, the fuel injection & supply systems are complicated - it's likely the diagnostic tools used by the shop & dealer were showing fuel &/or transfer pump as the problem. There could be all kinds of issues however, but that's why the car has interpretable dignostics, to help narrow things down and make servicing both quicker & easier, at least theoretically.

    One simple thing you might try - replace any relays related to the fuel system, and at this age/mileage, that's probably a good idea anyway -

    http://www.bavauto.com/shop.asp

    When I searched Bavauto for fuel pump relay for your car, it showed two different types of relays - $10-$11 ea. - but didn't specify if how many of which you might need. If you call, they can tell you exactly what you need.

    If you think it's fuel level and faulty fuel sender/gauge issue, then you could drive around a bit and tote some extra gas (secure it in the trunk and make sure it won't leak). I'm kinda skeptical three different shops would come up with about the same thing and that wouldn't be it. With the work that's been done, I'd say swap in new relays, fill it up with gas, and either give it a test drive with a chase car following you & keeping it at a low-traffic time, or drive it and hope for the best. I understand the frustration from lagging confidence in repair reliability though.

    Aftermarket parts, when sourced from a reputable supplier offering true oem-equivalent/quality parts, aren't much to be concerned about. In the case of German cars, often times the aftermarket part may be the exact same as the BMW part, as it's only made by one manufacturer (Bosch, for instance), but it isn't BMW-stamped or packaged, and available at a better price. There are plenty of car-specific parts that are only available via the dealer, however. Just fyi; of course you're not alone, as many prefer BMW-original parts for any variety of reasons.

    When it stops, does the engine just stop running suddenly, or does it do anything giving you warning, like coughing, sputtering, stalling, or rough running, etc.? If your 350 mile trip was one tank of gas, or in a single run with no re-fueling stops, but your gauge indicated falsely, it might be that you have a combination of issues - fuel senders perhaps, and the pumps that have been replaced, as one set of possibilities. If that was one tank of gas in a single 350 mile run, I guess if you didn't know how far you could go before completely running out of gas with highway driving, you do now, albeit unfortunately. Generally speaking, in my experience, vehicles seem to be designed to have about a 300 mile range in open-highway running and not loaded heavily, so I find myself usually filling up by 300 miles or somewhat sooner on road trips. YMMV.
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    460098

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    Wow, thanks for the detailed reply. I appreciate the info. There are a couple of things I need to add and as I said earlier this is a complicated issue so here goes. The first repair was done following a throttle body replacement by the Certified repair shop. I went to that person after being sold three Vanos hoses by another "Certified" shop so the idea of being sold lots of parts and just throwing parts at my car may or maynot be accurate but...if you don't know and each trip is $400 to $800 you get a little concerned. OK so shortly after the throttle body I get engine that turns over but won't start, Trailer back to Mr. Certified and he says fuel pump...there is gas indicated in the tank. We replace the pump and 20 miles later and it won't start again so I had it trailered to Tom Williams dealership here and described in detail with all the service records...I have every service record and each fill-up listed with mileage per tank etc. I keep pretty detailed records. They say the pump that was installed was aftermarket as I said and I asked them to give me the pump they removed to compare, took pic's of it and sent it to Bavauto and t hey too said it wasn't the same as OEM so I don't know if that had anything to do with it but you can see the confidence and run-around beginning.
    Ok, I asked them to check out the car completely because we were planning a road trip to Pennsylvania from our home in Birmingham and I didn't want to be stranded on the "Side of the Road" and so...after 350 miles straight up I-81 coughing,,,sputtering I managed to pull to the shoulder and it stopped; there was slightly less than half a tank registering on the gauge. Interstate mileage is around 28 MPG plus or minus so I have a pretty decent range; when I tried to restart it and it would catch briefly, sputter and die. I called AAA and they trailered it to Kingsport, Tennessee and Rick Hill Imports, (when we reached Kingsport, I started the car and pulled it off the Lowboy and it started right up) a BMW dealership where the service rep and his tech ran a diagonstic that indicated a fuel pump issue. Now I am not exactly a happy camper because that is exactly what I was trying to avoid...this fellow seemed to be very detailed and listen while I went through each step of my problem and showed him my record book I carry in the car to record fill-ups and service...I keep the service sheets in my files at home...I know that's a little extreme but...(By the way, the part numbers on the service sheets on the two previous pumps were identical but the pumps were different...just a note I thought interesting)
    He said his rep took the cover off the tank and there was very little fuel in the passenger side of the tank but almost full in the drivers side. I am not sure which way is indicated right or left looking at the car from the front or sitting in the car so I will indicate by driver side left and passenger side right.
    As I said the tank was almost dry on the passsenger side and almost full on the drivers side so he said a transfer pump was what was needed and of course he didn't have one but if I kept the tank at atleast half full I should be able to complete the trip and get the repair straighten out at home. Traveling on to Staunton that night, stopping every two hundred miles was a pain especially when some moron tried to breakdown the door of our room and we got to meet some Big Ol' Policemen with their hungry dog "Shep" at !:30 AM so this trip isn't going quite as well as we might like...OK we traveled to Pennsylvania and I decided the fellow in Kingsport knew what the problem was so I called him, made arrangements for him to get the part on hand and we would stop on our return and let him repair the car which we did. It rained the whole way home and to be honest I didn't trust the repair so to date I have not driven the car past a half of a tank.
    I'm sure I have left out some important detail that might solve this mystery but who knows.
    If there was gas in the drivers side of the tank and that is the side that supplies fuel to the injector body why did the engine starve for fuel and die even though the passengerside was almost dry. Isn't the passenger side the return portion of the tank, in other words where the excess fuel is returned from the injector body? I have no idea...I am only trying logic that may or maynot apply.
    Thanks for the reply, I appreciate your help,
    Wayne Rasco

    BRKist528 KissKiss

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    With a full tank of gas, does the car start and drive like normal?
    When you fill up at a gas station with less than half a tank (indicated by your fuel level sensor), how many gallons will it take until it is full?
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    460098

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    When I left Kingsport, Tn. to continue the trip to Pennsylvania and returned to Birmingham the trip was around 1800 additional miles and as long as I kept the tank at least half full it ran fine. The fillups were what you might expect...around 9 gallons. Everything performs as well as it did when we bought the car in 2000 with this exception. The trip was in April of this year and I've not let the tank go below half yet and as I said earlier I just don't want to chance having to stop in traffic locally or test it out on the interstate with additional gas in a can in the trunk. I may have to do that to be certain but I would like to avoid it if possible. I am almost 70 and kinda past experimental stuff like that. Maybe when I was 25 or 30 I did some crazy stuff but...I'm kinda past that now. Not quite as quick as I once was so I don't what to get into a position that might get someone else hurt. The maintenance on this vehicle has been kept up and with the usual Vanos hoses, Oxygen sensors and most recently a throttle body nothing has been done to the car. Maddening.
    Wayne Rasco

    BRKist528 KissKiss

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    This sounds like something extremely simply and silly. With the purchase of two new fuel pumps I can not imagine something like not enough head pressure being supplied to the pump. Could a fuel line be blocked or pinched off when the tank is below half? Could the fuel tank itself be hanging too low or tilted to one side? I'd have someone simply investigate the status of your fuel lines from the gas tank to the fuel filter. Make sure there isn't a pinch point causing the loss of flow.
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    460098

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    I agree most trouble shooting is simple first. If the car runs perfectly on half a tank or more it stands to reason that it is not flow. The tank, and I had no idea it was a saddle configiration, is full on one side and empty on the other but indicating on the gauge it is at least or slightly below half full; then it would seem the pump that keeps the level equal is at fault. The problem for me is the side that is full is also the side that supplies fuel to the injectors so why when it goes below a half a tank does it starve itself for fuel and quit.

    Now I may be mistaken about the fuel delivery protocol but that is the way it was explained by the service guy in Kingsport, Tennessee. One side of the tank supplies fuel to the injectors (it sends more than it needs) and the excess is routed back to the other side of the tank where it is pumped over by a transfer pump etc...it is crazy I know and it may be in fact resolved but I am chicken to test it on the interstate and maybe have a transfer truck run up my...trunk.

    BRKist528 KissKiss

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    This must be a transfer pump issue. Your explanation sounds solid with what I've been reading. I'd say inspect the transfer pump and fuel lines. Please let us know how it goes.
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    460098

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    When we returned from Pennsylvania we stopped in Kingsport, Tennessee and let Hill Imports, a BMW dealership replace the transfer pump and drove on into Birmingham without a problem but...remember I still haven't let it go below a half a tank of fuel. I guess the logic sounds solid but something has bothered me since it started and that is if the side of the tank that supplies fuel to the injectors is almost full why does it sputter and die...starved for fuel while the other side of the tank is empty. I agree the transfer pump was probably the root cause but it seems that if there were gas available from the full side of the tank...I know that is redundant but...
    it seems my only solution is to go out and drive it until it's almost empty and see what happens...
    I'm getting too old for this stuff...we're headed to the coast next week so maybe I'll just trust AAA will come to my rescue and do it.
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    MGarrison

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    Weird, I replied additionally yesterday, looks like I got logged out and didn't realize it... again! Oh well, too bad - & it was such a brilliant reply too! :p

    Your logic is sound, but take a look at the realoem.com diagram again - left is driver's side, right is passenger side. Above, you said the tech said there was no gas in the passenger (right) side, and plenty in the driver's (left) side - it sounds like in your last two posts, you're thinking the fuel pump draws from the driver's side, which is incorrect, at least if that diagram is correct. The in-tank fuel pump sits in the passenger side of the tank, and is tubed to the right-side fuel-level sender. The fuel pump draws from & empties the passenger side of the tank; having the other half (driver's side) of the tank being full indicates the transfer pump not working. In the realoem.com diagram, the transfer pump is part #7, "Left sucking jet pump with disconnect part". It seems highly unlikely that replacing the transfer pump wouldn't resolve the issue, unless the new transfer pump is faulty out-of-the-box (unlikely), or, your fuel-level senders have quit working just since the other work was done (which also seems unlikely, timing-wise; not impossible, but unlikely).

    I didn't suggest a highway run to test things, just driving; obviously risking any kind of accident is not warranted. If your high-side mileage is 28mpg, if you drove down to a 1/2 tank, a 15-20 mile run out, and then back (30-40 miles total) on some lightly traveled side roads might well get you below the halfway point, and on some road where your concerns about surrounding traffic may be less likely to be an issue for pulling off to the side. Obviously toting around a few gallons of gas is less than ideal, although if secured properly and tightened enough to not leak, probably not much of an issue, on the presumption the odds are in your favor for a few hours. Newer gas cans can be a nuisance though compared to older ones - had to get one last year, it has a spring-loaded spout, and required keeping the spring-loaded release lever/finger jammed against the lip of the filler neck - ugh.

    However, I think it's quite likely your issue is resolved, although obviously remote armchair guesstimates and discussions cannot be a sure-fire guarantee. It might not be a bad idea to tote along, or pre-emptively replace your fuel pump relays. Years ago my mechanic had a wire with two spade plugs he gave me with instructions on how to jumper the relay just in case it ever went out - replacing the relay is easier and a lot safer! If you track your mileage after filling up, if you ever have an issue with the fuel gauge or senders, even if the gauge indicates incorrectly, you'll know by your mileage if you're close to needing refueling... unless your odometer malfunctions, is incorrect, or not displaying. Ahh....... cars. :)

    I don't think the tank is two sealed halves, I'm guessing the reason your car started after being flatbedded is by the time the car had gotten back to the dealer, between the ride & turns, gas from the mostly-full driver's side had sloshed over into the other half, enough for it to start and run for a bit.

    Aside from the inconvenience and hassle of getting stuck, towed, etc - it's unfortunate you didn't get a more accurate diagnosis from the get-go. Even if you don't try to run it lower before your trip, replacing the transfer pump I suspect should have squared things away - I certainly hope so, it _is_ frustrating to be stuck on the side of the road! I suppose one thing is a few gallons of gas from AAA should get you rolling again, instead of needing a tow, if you find yourself sidelined again.
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    460098

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    You have no idea how much I appreciate the input from you guys. Obviously this is my first forum of any kind and while I am not afraid of these things I do have a little trouble learning to navigate them. I sure wish they had spell check...
    I didn't mean to imply you suggested I ride around with a gas can in the trunk; that was my conclusion early on as the most logical way to ensure if something did go bad I would at least be able to get home. I was concerned about the traffic on interstates, which we live just off I-459 and local streets which are narrow and heavily traveled. Maybe an early trip out for a test drive since the tank is still right at the half way mark with a reserve of a couple of gallons in the trunk. I just bought a new 2 gallon tank and I saw the extra locking mechanism...we should feel safer now; no more kick ball on the play ground, cup cakes in the class room and sugar for my cereal...sorry that's another subject.
    I mentioned early on that I may have been wrong about the fuel flow to the injectors from the tank and if it does in fact flow from the passenger side to the injector and then the excess flows to the driver side that would make all the difference in the world. it would explain why there would be half a tank indicated on the gauge and the car starving for fuel and stopping. So you are suggesting the transfer pump extracts fuel from the drivers side and replaces it on the passenger side.
    Where are these fuel pump relays located. I have not ordered a Benchley's for the 5 yet; I did get one for the 330Ci so I guess one for the 5 is next...I looked in Bavauto and found them but no schematic. I also looked at RealOEM but wasn't able to find a DYI on relays.
    Thank you and everyone for your input; I appreciate the help and I will take my new Government approved 2 gallon gas can with the extra difficult removable filler neck, get two gallons of premium Sunoco approved racing fuel and head for the beach. Gulf Shores is beautiful this time of year...in fact the coast is beautiful any time of the year.
    Thanks again,
    Wayne Rasco
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    MGarrison

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    That is how it appears to be routed and function, as best I can tell from the diagram. If we get anybody to pipe up that's actually looked inside an E39 fuel tank to confirm, we could be more sure. I don't have an E39, so it's not something I've done, and the setup on the cars I've worked on is a bit different (E21, E30, E34). However, there is no reason to doubt the accuracy of BMW's parts diagrams.

    Now THAT is an excellent question - and, not having an E39, I can't say for sure! They are likely in a fusebox or fuse/relay panel, but they could be all over the car. In my E34, there are fuses under the rear seat, for instance, but that's not the only place. Might be under the hood someplace, under dash, under seat, under a trunk trim panel, etc.

    (right about now we could actually use somebody who HAS one of these and knows it to speak up! :p)

    When all else fails, there's always google - likely you'll find answers on bimmerforums.com, bimmerfest.com, and even youtube for that matter. I'm reasonably confident if you converse with someone at Bavarian Autosport they could tell you as you order the relays. The relay suggestion is not an absolute, by the way, but cheap peace-of-mind; you can keep new one(s) on hand just-in-case, or swap in a new on and throw the old one in the glovebox as a backup.

    https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&q=bmw e39 fuel pump relay location&oq=BMW e39 fuel pump re&gs_l=hp.1.2.0l3j0i30.0.0.1.1877.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0.eqrwrth..0.0...1..14.psy-ab.TAWxLScH6DQ&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&bvm=bv.46751780,d.aWc&fp=e9173b76e20ae23e&biw=1173&bih=616

    Looks like some pictures pop up too. There shouldn't be anything complicated about swapping a relay - they may have a small block protruding on the sides that some 'fingers' fit around to ensure the relay doesn't wiggle out. You may need to release those with a small screwdriver or something at most, but it's also likely you can just pop it out. If there are a bunch close together, you may find BMW was nice enough to include a relay/fuse puller stuck somewhere in conjunction with the fusebox or relay panel.

    I use mozilla firefox for a browser - not sure if it's a toggle option or not, it seems to include spell checking, which is helpful in not coming across as completely illiterate... at least some of the time. ;)

    Ok - according to this post, it looks like in the trunk, above the battery (scroll down thru the post to see the pic)

    http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6345746

    Excellent picture here - scroll down and see post #8

    http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=561480

    Gulf Shores, yeah, yeah, yeah... the closest option for me is to go have some sewage-ridden catfish chew on my toenails if I wanted to risk wading into the mud on the banks of the beautiful mud-brown Ohio river.... ;) :p
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    460098

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    To post a reply I guess you log in and then select the "Reply" beside the # of the message. When I do that I get a reprint of the previous message so I select it, delete it and then enter my reply...seems wrong but I can't see another way to communicating. Also, can I print a message or series of messages and if so how. I tried Upload...nothing, I tried the tool bar and I get an incomplete chopped off message...Sorry to be so ignorant but...I'm ignorant.

    By the way, I will order that Benchley repair manual from BAV. Obviously I got the flow of fuel backward and the other way makes sense since the passenger side was almost empty and the driver side was almost full with the gauge indicating half a tank. So the transfer pump is actually a "Sucking" device not a Pump per se...that's what was so hard about that description. I was looking for something that was pumping fuel to a point...not sucking if from a point. Wow...Maybe I have it now...we'll see.
    At any rate thank you and the others for your help...I've been a little blank with this problem.
    Thanks,
    Wayne Rasco
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    MGarrison

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    This site works best with java enabled - kinda lengthy to explain java, but you can google it and/or your browser name and java and that might help.

    In theory, you _should_ be seeing a reply box at the bottom of the screen, below the last post in a thread, and below that, there should be a 'button' with "Post Reply" within its boundaries. If you hit the "Reply" button, yes, that automatically quotes the entirety of the post you're replying to. If you explore or participate in other forums, you'll find there's not a standard - this is how this forum software works, other forums may be generally similar, but not the same - different software. If you do see a reply box after this, java for your browser is probably enabled and you don't have to worry about it. Sometimes people or antivirus software disable it for security purposes.

    If you want to save yourself some login time, bookmark the forums and allow your browser to save both your forum name and password, and you should be logged in with a few clicks.

    Your browser should allow you to print whatever page you're on - look on the top left of your browser on your screen for a print &/or print preview option. On Mozilla Firefox, if I click "File" (top left) the sub-menu that pops up has Print and Print Preview, and I can click on either of those to print a page. Sometimes a page may be setup to restrict printing, but that's not very typical - you should be able to print most pages directly from your browser. Much easier than printing screen captures which is a pita multi-step process.

    Just fyi - the manual is published by Robert Bentley Publishers, (thus, Bentley manual), but everyone will know what ya mean. ;) I assume BMW calls it a sucking pump because, presumably, it sucks from the driver-side tank and pumps it into the other half. I assume you'd say the pump sucks just because its been so much of a problem! ;) :p

    In principle, fuel system operation is fairly straightforward - the fuel has to circulate, because if it stopped at the end of the fuel rail where the fuel injectors attach, the pump wouldn't be able to run. The fuel pump picks up the fuel from the tank and pushes it forward thru the filter, etc. up to the fuel rail, and the return line runs back to the tank. Sounds like in the E39, the return line comes back to the driver-side half of the tank, and the saddle-tank design necessitates the transfer pump to move fuel back over so the fuel pump can pick it up. The fuel pressure regulator keeps the pressure at an appropriate level, and when the car's electronics signal the fuel injectors to open, fuel squirts into the combustion chamber.

    Glad to be of any help, just hope that your service efforts have gotten this problem fixed for you!
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    460098

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    Bentley...not Benchley...right. I bought one for the 330; I should read the cover before attempting anything inside. As I said I am a really old guy and the cars I worked on could be done by sitting on the fender with your feet propped on the headers.
    You have provided an amazing a mount of help and I truly appreciate it. You should give Gulf Shores a try and if you come through Birmingham drop in; you're always welcome.
    Reversing the fuel flow makes everything fall into place logically; now if it acutally works. I see no reason it wont so thanks. I use Java and I do have the reply box at the bottom of my screen and I have the print and print preview in the upper left corner of my tool bar but as I said it prevents the whole article from being visable; it cuts off the right hand side. I will figure it out and thanks again,
    Wayne Rasco
    I will post if I am successful in my test drive...if not...send flowers to your favorite BMW shop.
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    MGarrison

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    Browser wonkiness... *sigh* Perhaps you could increase screen resolution temporarily to maximum, whatever that might be and try and print, see if that makes any difference. If it's not already at max resolution, that is. I can't tell you much about macs or Windows 7 and later, but if you have the windows paint utility, you could hit 'PrtScr' for a screen capture, and paste the screenshot into paint, and print it from paint. If the paint utility canvas/workscreen is too large, you might want to downsize it first, because paint would print the entire workscreen, even if it's blank beyond what you pasted in. If you make it small, say 600x800 or whatever, and what you're pasting in is larger, it will automatically make the canvas/workscreen the same size as what you're pasting. Paint's kind of a nuisance, you could more easily manipulate and print screen captures with a more dedicated graphics program; it'll work though.

    Was in Birmingham for O'Fest a couple of years ago - had a great time, and 3 days at Barber :D Need to get back sometime, maybe next year! Will give ya a shout when it happens :)

    I presume we won't here you relay something like the following:

    "Wayne, where's your car?"

    "I had enough of fuel starvation problems, so I just drove it into the gulf - had a nice swim, though." ;)
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    460098

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    No windows paint and I am using Windows XP so maybe the Gerbil got tired anyway oddly enough I think I'm headed to the Apple store today for a transition to Mac and putting this downstairs for my utility and photography work. Barbers is great; we've been several times and got some great shots. The catch fence is necessary but it took some great angles away for pic's, still it's a great experience.

    You know Bond had a car that traveled nicely under water so who knows...I think I am satisfied the problem is resolved so now the test. I might take an unplanned, undocumented road trip today for a quick test drive. Maybe head to Tuscaloosa and the book store that should be close to a total of 150 miles and settle this issue before we leave Monday.

    At any rate, again I do appreciate all the detailed information you and a couple of others offered with my possibly "perceived" problem.

    Also, we are headed to the Alabama Writers Conclave in Fairhope in July so maybe it could make a good story line although it might have to be in the Adult Humor section.

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