Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by lcjhnsn, Aug 2, 2010.
I would have only a couple of issues with purchasing a car like that...
Most importantly, understand that Peugeot no longer has a dealer or official factory presence in the USA. Despite the fact this vehicle includes about $3,000 in factory parts, the description doesn't go into detail about WHICH parts these are. Also, even with the parts issue being taken care of, you may have a challenge finding a factory supported service support for this vehicle without Peugeot's official presence in the USA.
I might also point out that Peugeot had a really dismal reliability record in the USA, which is part of the reason they pulled out of this country in the early 1990's.
Secondly, even with the 25 year grace period from the NHTSA, the owner is still going to be responsible for any safety and emissions inspections the owner's home state may require. The car may still require lighting and emissions conversions to be performed before passing a state inspection. You may have to convert the headlamps to US spec (that would suck, since the US has a much weaker lighting spec than Europe does -- I'd probably want to swap in US spec headlights to pass inspection, then restore it back to the Euro lighting so that I could see the road once the inspection was passed.)
Thirdly, keep in mind you are basically purchasing a 26 year old, limited production (now long since out of production), EURO model with no official factory presence in the USA.
I'd be doing much better for myself purchasing a Euro model BMW 25 or more years old. At least BMW still has a factory, dealer, service, and support presence in the USA.
If I had the means I would be all over it. Of course, that would mean parking it (again, using these imaginary means) next to a nice Renault R5 Turbo (or Turbo 2) and you'd have a nice matching pair of outrageous Group B French machines, both of which I've badly wanted since the 1980s!
Funny you should mention that: My first thought was to reply, "Hell yeah, but if had my choice of insane French rallye cars I'd pick a Renault R5 Turbo," then thought better of it because I don't remember where I filed the picture of a parked R5 I snapped in the outfield at the '88 or '89 Lime Rock IMSA GP which I wanted to scan and attach to the post and planned to look for it tomorrow instead of posting a run-on sentence more convoluted than either car's exhaust plumbing.
If I can find the pic and some punctuation, I'll post one or the other or both.
Good luck with the punctuation; the pic ain't gonna happen.
Back in the mid 80s there was a place in Pompano Beach just south of the Porsche dealer on Federal Highway that sold the federalized R5 Turbo 2s and they had a couple of brand new ones on display for around $25K or so. My dad and I looked at them but since it had no A/C my dad decided to pass on it and got a 944 instead. Great car but nowhere near as interesting as an R5!
Most importantly, BMW won't support your imported old Euro any more than Peugeot will this one. Try getting Euro BMW parts through any official BMW channels (or didn't you get that memo?).
You might, but it hardly matters. See below.
Secondly, I'd bet that, in almost every state, this car qualifies as an antique or collector car not subject to any emissions testing. Exempt from the NHTSA means it's also exempt from headlamp requirements. Further, what could be safer than a full roll cage space frame and 4- or 5-point belts? Oh wait; it's probably only got ONE license plate light ...
Thirdly, so what?
The arguments you've raised about this car are the ones you'd use if your daughter was also considering an Accord and you really thought the Honda was a better idea. We're talking about an absolutely insane and insanely rare Group B rally car homologation special! Nobody who's going to consider buying a "Killer B" will give a flying damn whether Peugeot has an official factory presence in the US. I know I wouldn't.
I can't wait for the Lancia Scorpion thread ...
I visited this website and I have to say, loud and clear: A-freakin'-MEN!
First of all, thank you Drummerfc!
That's a generalization I'm not going to touch. There are 50 states in the USA, and no two states are alike in their emissions and safety inspections except whether or not they have them. That 25 year exemption MIGHT NOT count for a vehicle that was NEVER federalized for US sale, and no matter what its age, I'm pretty sure it's still going to be subject to regular annual "brake tag" inspections. The 25 year exemption simply allows the car to be imported into the USA without having to be federalized. That's not a blank check exempting it from state inspection (and possibly emissions) requirements. It just allows it to be imported into the USA. Once it's here, you're on your own with the state authorities.
Five years ago, I asked the parts counter at my former BMW dealer in New Orleans, Peake BMW, and I was told that as long as BMW had the part in their warehouse, and provided it was not prohibited for US importation by either BMW or the US government, they saw no problem with this part.
Do you have any idea how many Euro-spec BMW's there are in this country? Grey market cars were a big business back in the 1980's. Quite a few BMW's were never officially approved for US sale, including the 2002 turbo, the E21 320i/6 and the 323i, the E21 Baur convertible, as well as some Euro-spec E23's and E24's. In fact, quite a few are offered for sale in the Roundel. If the car meets the 25 year exemption, and there is no prohibition on the part from BMW or the US, AND (most importantly) BMW still has it in stock, most dealers will see no problem with ordering such a part.
This would exempt you from the federal headlight requirements, not state. Most annual brake tag inspections (for which an "antique" exemption may not necessarily apply to a car never approved for official US sale) do include inspecting proper light operation.
You're forgetting, this car is a "homologation special" a limited production model necessary to be approved for racing. In certain racing circuits, a manufacturer must build a certain number of "street" versions in order to be able to qualify a certain model for that type of racing body. This car is a limited production homologation street version of the approved version of the race car (a completely different car from the street version - the homologation specials were only street versions representative of the actual race cars). Why would anyone spend $12,000 to race a limited production (and potentially very valuable collector car) and risk damaging the actual car as well as its collector car value? Especially when you can purchase a used 3-series AND prep it for racing for a whole lot less?
First of all, the car likely already has seatbelts that would easily pass any US safety inspection, making four or five point harnesses completely unnecessary unless you were planning to race it privately (which would go back to the original question, why on earth you would spend $12K to risk damaging a limited production collectible car by racing it? How many genuine, factory-original 2002 turbos do you see on an autocross course, for example?). Ditto for why anyone would bother welding in a rollcage in these cars, which by the way, were it not for the 25 year antique exemption, would NOT exempt the car from meeting US roof-crush safety requirements. Did I mention this was a street car?
Oh, you NEEEED this car!
I know a guy in Portland who has so many Group B cars-including Peugeots, Renaults, Audi SWB Quattros, even those god-awful MGs-that he has spares of the spares. (He also had a BMW M1 until me and another guy totaled it in California, but that's another long story.)
He gave me a ride around PIR in the Pug and aimed it at the curbing at about 80 mph. "Oh, great," I thought, "here goes the suspension!" But no: The damn thing just swallowed up the bump and kept charging across the grass.
Oh, my stars and garters! I am SOOOO stoked that BMW is getting back into rallying! (Well, Mini. . . but still.) And I am soooooo glad we get WRC coverage again! Thank you, HDTV! Stick it, Speed!
Please tell me that this story will be explained in detail in an upcoming Roundel!!
This sounds like one of those juicy stories that will have us bent over laughing (although not at the time I am sure). Please do publish this one.
so am I the only one who's completely confused by the extra brake lights under the hood?
Oh yeah, Mr. Smarty?
Behold the R5 Turbo 2 and, just to put a stamp on the era, the mighty V-12 Jaguar XJR-9 and its nemesis, the Nissan GTP-ZX Turbo--both IMSA Camel GT Prototypes. Man, I still miss the GTP series--still the most ferocious and among the best-looking cars I've ever seen on a track.
Pace car for LRP that year and centerfold ad in the race program: BMW M6.
Those extra lights were mandated by the racing rules in case the rear cover came off in racing. I am guessing this was a problem, hence the rule and the extra lights.
It is a cinch to get any euro BMW parts you want for your car provided you show the dealer the title and euro VIN.
ok, that makes sense, I'm curious how often that actually happened
Don't pee in my corn flakes
Cars of this nature are why I go to bed to dream.
I don't dream of factory support. If you can't find the parts, repair them. If you can't repair the parts, make a new ones.
You gotta have your dreams, if not your dream cars.
Answering a generalization with a generalization? Nice try.
It's pretty clear that you've never read any of the laws regarding antique and collector vehicles. As an owner of a couple of them who has lived in a couple of different states, I have. My generalization is going to be more accurate than yours; certainly it is in the states where I've been and where I live. The bottom line is, once the antique/collector status is achieved, it hardly matters whether it's an import or not. Its age & collector interest outweighs the usual safety and inspection concerns and these are almost invariably waived. Why do you think that NHTSA rule exists?
So you didn't read the memo from last year. I figured as much.
BMW has increasingly resisted providing parts for non-NA spec cars. Now, as Paul says, you have to provide a VIN. Even then, many dealers won't help you.
Haven't read any of these, either, have you? Most states require "at least two, and no more than four, white lights" (or something to that effect) on the front. Few even refer to the federal standards, much less enforce them. These also get trumped for antiques. No pre-1940 car, American or import, meets FMVSS headlight standards because sealed beams weren't yet in use. But there are even licensed vehicles running around with acetylene headlamps. They're antiques.
I'm forgetting nothing. I know exactly what a homologation special is. I mentioned it first, didn't I? You've also obviously never spent any time around vintage racing or you wouldn't be asking such naive questions. Apparently you are unaware that many people appreciate valuable old cars as they were intended to be used, not as mere museum pieces. Some even have the wherewithal to race them - with most of racing's attendant risks. That's a fact.
You can mention it's a "street car" all you want. It's nothing of the sort - except to the extent that they put enough lights, mufflers, and license plate holders to make it 'street legal'. Look at the pictures! This particular car came with a full roll cage/space frame! That's the only way it was built. It also came with full race harnesses. You could roll down a mountain with it and, although there might not be much bodywork left, you'd still be safely strapped inside that cage. I wasn't talking about modifying it one little bit.
If I had the cash and present motivation, I'd buy this thing. Then, I'd challenge you to meet me on a track with your race-prepped E36 - and I'd suck your headlights out.
If I've learned one thing...
..it's never argue with someone who's going to insist they're right all the time. It's a waste of oxygen. And clearly, you're about to pop a blood vessel over something that's not worth it. I'd just as soon not send you to the hospital over something this trivial. Heaven forbid, let's not have the facts get in the way of your ego.
Two, I never said I owned an E36. Now you're making up cars I don't have in my possession? And what does the juvenile act of challenging someone to a race prove? It doesn't change the facts, and it's certainly not going to lower your blood pressure, that's for sure. No thanks.
Three, I wouldn't share a lane at a McDonald's drive-thru with someone so testy, let alone one on a highway or a closed track. The encounter is not worth the paperwork my insurance company would drown me in.
Separate names with a comma.