Advice from the new BMW CCA ombudsmen

John Gamel and Christopher Basner in May 2008 joined Dwayne Moseley as Club ombudsmen. Here's some general advice from John about avoiding disputes, minimizing disputes, and making the best of issues with dealers. If you've got questions for the ombudsmen, this is a good place to post them. See the Contact Us page for how to reach them privately.

"I think there are a few key points: 1) We aren't lawyers [Chris is but he's not representing the Club], and can't offer legal advice; and flowing from that: 2) if a member has filed a lawsuit over an issue of contention, it's out of our hands. That said, I've drawn the conclusion than we can try to help when a member has a problem with a dealer, supplier, or possibly BMWNA (although Dwayne said that last is a rare event). The types of problems could be pretty wide-ranging, it seems, from failures to perform as promised, to mechanical issues, to personnel issues in a dealership.

"I think the general rules which might apply to a person dealing with any issue involving a BMW (or any vehicle for that matter) are:

"1) hold on to, and be able to produce all documents regarding the issue in contention (also, photographs in some instances make powerful tools);
"2) make notes regarding persons with whom you've spoken, and the nature of the conversation; and
"3) always attempt to remain calm, reasonable and non-argumentative.

"In my former life, I had to testify in Federal Court with some regularity. The documents I produced, the notes that I made, and my calm demeanor always served me well."

Dealer service issue

I went to my BMW dealer for a fast oil change since it was offered as a freebie due to their first encounter with me that caused them embarrassment. No problem got there about 7 AM and waited for the job to be done.

About a half hour into my wait the SA comes out to tell be bad news. My oil drain plug is stripped beyond repair and it will need to be replaced along with the oil pan.

Wait a minute!!! I brought the car in with no defects and now I have one!!! You gotta be kidding. The SA brought me into the shop to show me the spinning drain plug and what a correct plug looked like.

So they gave me a loaner and told me they would let me know what the cost to repair was.

A little later I get a email with an estimate of $474.00 to fix it!!! They claimed I did not have the correct oil plug and that is what caused the problem.

I advised them that I had done some investigation on the internet and what they called as a correct oil plug was NOT available in 1999 and that what was in the car was the correct BMW part.

I emailed back stating that was unacceptable since it was not that way when I brought it in.

After some dialog that included causing me emotional distress they decided the fix it for free. Imagine that!!!

This is the good part. They gave me the old parts to keep. After about 15 minutes I had the old drain plug out and saw no damage to the threads on the oil pan bung.

I had a friend who owns a metal fab shop take a look at the damage and it was evident that some extreme force was put on the plug way beyond the torque specs. He estimated at least 100 or more ft-lbs was used since there was not a bit of thread left on at least half of the plug.

Cleaned everything up and put in a new plug to check seating and torque. Was able to torque plug to 20 ft-lbs with no issues. So now I have a replacement oil pan and they are out money and a customer.

Moral of the story. DO NOT TRUST DEALERSHIPS…they will screw you. I don't know the IQ of the mechanic involved but I figure he is the guy who CAN put a round peg in a square hole. If they had taken the time to evaluate the situation I could have had my car back the same day and not be put through such an ordeal.

I figure there is no use in sending more complaints to BMWNA since they don't listen anyway.

I would like to hear your comments on this situation.

Thanks

I posted in the Maintenance forum about an issue with BMW's new policy regarding extended warranty.

I was always told by dealers that as long as I was still under the original factory warranty that I could purchase BMW's expended warranty. They quietly changed this policy last month without warning. The new program excludes new cars still under warranty if the in-service date is more then 45 months, even if the car is still covered by the original warranty. Now I find myself in the unique position of wanting to give BMW my money but they won't take it. I can't be the only person that put off buying the policy and is now excluded.

How 'bout a little BMWCCA help?

M6 (07) Engine Compartment

I'm seeking advice were I can purchase this part rather than going to the dealer.
Part; E63 M6 Shielding, engine compartment/air ducts. I'm not happy with the dealers prices.
Any extend warranty suggestion, my warranty runs out in 2000 miles. I'm planning to purchase an ext warranty soon. thx

To anyone who has a dissatisfactory experience at a dealership

I recommend this only if you have an ongoing issue with a dealer that has not been resolved, and if your vehicle is still currently under warranty:

Inform the dealer you are going to request a customer satisfaction survey DIRECT from BMW North America. Do not request this from the dealer -- they're not likely to provide you with the rope you intend to hang them with. You CAN however, inform the dealer you will score them with unsatisfactory marks if the issue is not resolved to your satisfaction, upon receipt of the survey in the mail. Be calm, courteous when informing them of this.

Talk to the general manager of the dealership if the service manager doesn't give you any satisfaction.

Above all else, keep your temper in check -- the last thing you want to do is undercut your own bargaining position. Losing your cool doesn't fix the issue and it doesn't make anyone work any faster. Take the high road even if the dealer is a jerk. An unsatisfactory survey will hand out the karma for you, but you want to do what you can to make sure you look and smell like a rose and not a "skunk" in handling it.

Then stand back and watch what happens. Handle the issue the right way and you may be surprised at the result.

I disagree with this. I believe the majority of BMW's dealerships sincerely care about their customers and presenting a positive image to BMW. I also believe that BMW North America wants a positive image also. By all means, if you have a bad experience with a dealer, and being civil hasn't gotten you the desired results, please follow the advice at the top of this message. BMW can't correct a problem they are not aware of, and the customer satisfaction survey is probably the most powerful tool available to a BMW customer. Be positive, calm, respectful, honest, and keep it professional. As stated before, order the survey directly from BMW North America.

Keeping BMW North America informed of these issues helps all of us by weeding out bad apples that repeatedly show an indifferent attitude to the rest of the BMW owner/enthusiast community.

Your post is pretty vague as it doesn't really relate whether you've owned this car since 1999.

If not, then how do you know the plug is the "corrrect-in-1999" item?

Is there any evidence out there that BMW has changed the design on your engine?

That should be common knowledge and make comparison with the so-called "correct today" plug meaningful.

Drain plugs really aren't rocket science and it's pretty difficult to imagine anything but operator error--when the plug was installed--causing the stripped threads.

There's simply no way to remove an incorrect/incorrectly installed plug to avoid damage.

You seem to suggest the dealer removed a perfectly fine plug and then either incorrectly reinstalled it or somehow attempted to install an incorrect plug? What sort of "incorrect plug" would be laying around this dealer?

The preponderance of common sense suggests something improper prior to your visit to the dealership. You need more than "I said so" on your side, i.e. some data.

Find a good non-dealer shop

Good repair advice I read in the Roundel, go to www.bimrs.org to find well trained BMW repair facility in your area. BIMRS advertises in the Roundel. I would agree that shop rates approaching $125.00 an hour are a choker.

I too have had reason to suspect dealer repair issues. Not long ago I decided to make a few checks of my Z4. I opened the air filter box to check the condition of the air filter. Upon removing the filter I found it had a production date of 07/06/06. The date I was inspecting was February, 2010. Going back over my maintenence records I found that, according to the dealer, the air filter had been replaced twice. By the way, the production date of the car was 9/1/2006. So I think you can understand my suspicians.

No matter what the make of car, NEVER give full trust to the dealers shop. I hate to be this way but the quickest way to get ripped is to believe the dealer is "On Your Side." I have had dealers try to sell me repairs that weren't needed. They can't look at me and know how many engines I have been into before. The number of brake jobs I have done or the many tune-up to my credit. Now days there is more expensive equipment needed to do some repairs which makes it harder for the shade tree mechanic. Many things are getting this way to keep you from doing repairs yourself and saving the big bucks.

Educate yourself, ask questions and keep your documents in order. That is the best defense.

Just because a part has an old production date does not mean that is when it was installed! That is when it was made, a very big difference. BMW produces large quantities of parts and then warehouses them. When I buy new parts for my E30s they often have decades of dust on them with the production dates to match.

I am extremely happy with the quality of my dealer's service. Jerry Clayton BMW, Takapuna Beach, Auckland, New Zealand. I am on my fourth 3-series and have taken three of them to Jerry Clayton. Every time, their service, and treatment of me, has been exceptional. Last time, they even saved me some money. The only thing I would say though, is the prices are high. Even with the discount for 6 year old and over cars. However, as my partner keeps saying, they know exactly what they are doing, and I am totally happy with their work, so it seems to make sense to keep them on. I recommend them highly to any BMW owner in the area, so long as they can afford it there. Not much direct use perhaps to most BMWCCA members, but I wanted to say there is one great dealer from a customer perspective.

Looking forward to your assistance.
You should have PM. Thanks

I have dreamed of owning a BMW since I was kid but all that excitement and faith in brand went down the drain with bad dealerships and customer service by BMWNA.

I purchased 2014 435ix from Passport BMW in Maryland. After the purchase, I found "Stolen Vehicle Recovery" document in glove compartment with the same VIN# but some other guy's name... asked my Sales Advisor; Aarion Browne. Sales Advisor goes to ask the Manager; David Comfort, comes back and informs me that purchase of the vehicle was never approved. Something sounded fishy so I ended up calling the guy's number on the document. Come to find out vehicle has been actually sold to him and was returned because he wasn't satisfied with the feel of vehicle!!! Really? So, I contacted the manager and tried to return the vehicle due to the fact that you lied about vehicle being sold to other customer and it was missing options that I specifically asked for but missed due to the lack of sales advisor's knowledge on vehicle. He's answer was "As soon as the vehicle leaves the lot, if I'm to return the vehicle, I would only get back pre-owned value of the vehicle".... so what he's saying is I paid brand-new price tag for used vehicle and why was the previous owner able to return the vehicle without penalty but I'm not allow to do so??? This argument went on for long time and it wasn't going anywhere, it was huge waste of time. Unfortunately, I kept the vehicle.

Within few days, I started to notice all these white flakes all over the black interior. If I try to pick it up and it would smear off like cigarette ashes but I don't smoke nor had anyone who smokes in my car. I took it back to Passport BMW to get it looked at, they ended up changing micro filter which did not fix the issue. I contacted BMWNA many times and their one and only answer is "we are not trained to blah blah blah", so useless... why is there even a phone number for customers to call if they can't help at all!? Anyway, dealer is about 2 hours away (4 hours round trip!) from my home and it was huge hassle and putting unnecessary mileages on new vehicle... and this back and forth driving to fix this "white flake" was on going issue for few weeks. I couldn't even enjoy my own car since I'm always in one of the loaners. Brand new vehicle blowing out these strange ashes from vent is just not normal and I'm really wishing I could just return the vehicle at this point since it's already showing problem day 1.

I just couldn't deal with Passport BMW anymore so I ended up taking the vehicle to local, BMW of Towson. I explain the situation to service advisor and first thing he told me was "You have to go back to Passport BMW to get serviced". So I asked, "Do you expect out of state BMW owner to get their service done by where they original purchased?" He hesitates for a few and ends up getting me the service manager; Richard Strickland. I'm thinking someone in upper management can finally help me out! I was dead wrong... He came out to check the vehicle, cranked up the A/C unit. I can already see white flakes building up on my back seat but he says "I don't see anything coming out of the vent so there is nothing I can do for you". I'm just so dumbfounded by all these dealers and service advisor's answers. I politely asked him again to see the white flakes on my seat that was building up whenever A/C was on and I explained how I couldn't even use A/C in 90+ degree weather due to the fact it could be hazardous. He promises that he would look into the matter with BMWNA and he would contact me as soon as he finds out. I didn't get a single call or email from him or any BMW of Towson.

It amazes me how BMW dealers & BMWNA treats their customers, This is what I have been waiting since I was a kid? What I huge disappointment. I'm sure not all but in my experience this has been the worst car buying experience I have EVER had.

Ended up doing some google researching and it turns out there were numerous occasions where other owners had same exact issue as I did. It came down to faulty evaporator and those flakes are aluminum oxides.

Finally, hanging on to my last hope went to Silver Spring BMW. Service advisor Kristina Williams was more than accommodating and showed sympathy towards me for what I had to go through. To make the already long story short, Silver Spring BMW took me in and fixed the issue! It was the faulty evaporator after all. Ever since then, this is the only dealer and service advisor I exclusively deal with and they have shown the meaning of customer service every single time.

Even though problem was resolved, it took about 2 months of dealing with dealers on brand new vehicle. By that time, I was so fed up and drained the "new car" joy experience was long gone...

Does this look normal to you?

@zen0s:

First of all, sorry you had to go through all that. Secondly, I'm shocked that an evaporator went out on a vehicle not yet two years old. Whatever happened to WARRANTY COVERAGE? Thirdly, that you had to go to THREE BMW dealers to get this problem fixed is inexcusable (not on YOU, but them).

Kudos on your patience. I think I would have stopped with Passport and told them, "either you fix this, or I will personally order a survey directly from BMW NA and will give you zeroes across the board until this is resolved."

Horrible that you had to go through all that, but congratulations that Kristina @ Silver Spring was able to get you back on track.

Special thanks for identifying these rotten apples to the rest of us so that we know who to avoid for any kind of new car or service business whatsoever. Maybe those establishments should hang up the new car dealership and service industries and sell apples on the side of the road instead.

Sorry for the issues you had and this not the service these stores should show to BMW owners. I have heard of this happening but have not seen it yet thanks for the pictures and info on this.

Thank you bcweir & charlson80.

I was contemplating if I should share my experience or not but I just had to. I never want any car buyers to go through what I had to go through. It really was miserably frustrating 2 months.

I have heard of people getting bad luck with their car purchase but I never thought I would end up being one of them. I have been to the dealer at least 2 dozen times for the issue and still doing the frequent visit due to abnormal rattling issues... I swear, fix one thing and there is always something else going wrong with my car... sigh

Today I noticed my A/C not working properly. During idle A/C seems to only blow out warm/hot air. I gave it about 15 mins of engine warm up and all but still no cold air. Only time I get cold air is when I'm driving and at stop it becomes warmer air again. I will be visiting dealer again

These are newer cars and there are always growing pains with new cars and I get your frustration with it but stick in there it does get better.

I am surprised to hear of your experience.The service departments of Passport BMW and Silver Spring BMW both get the highest ratings. I have been using BMW of Silver Spring since January 2010. Today I took my 335is coupe to Passport BMW to get the valve cover replaced (another horror story), partly because I moved and Passport BMW is much closer and partly because they offered a price that undercut BMW of Silver Spring by several hundred dollars.

BMW Silver Spring has revised its service policies and does not appear to be as accommodating as it used to be.

Now let's see how the valve cover job holds up. I may be sorry for changing dealers.