Hell, with an M3, I'd just be happy to be able to merge on the highway without people having to slow down behind me on the highway because my car can't get up to speed fast enough. Especially annoying when you're entering a motorway and people in front of you are going like 30mph and you want to pass but people in the left lane are going a lot faster. This is reeeeeally annoying, especially when you're late for work!
So my friend seems to have some trouble understanding the laws of physics and actually believes that FWD cars corner better than RWD cars , for various reasons he thinks are valid; i.e. "it pulls you through the turns". We've been arguing about it for a couple of hours and still after a million valid reasons I gave him that RWD is better he still won't get any common sense. Anyone have one killer thing to tell him that would put this ridiculous argument to rest?? AZ I know exactly what you mean about the freeway merging, same thing applies to me in the 2002. The worst is when its a steep uphill then people start slowing down on it and you lose all the momentum it took you so long to build up
Of course, some people are unconvinceable, however - if you haven't already, you might try the discussion in the context of weight transfer and power distribution (assuming you can get him to grasp the concepts). In practice, it seems variably-power-apportioned 4wd cars do supremely well - the racing Audi's of late, for instance.
It's like having two people do the work instead of one. Two people splitting the work is a lot more efficient than one person doing everything. This way, they can get more work done and more efficiently. One person doing everything strains that one person and he/she cannot work as efficiently as possible, therefore getting less work done less efficiently. A FWD car like that one person doing the work. It's putting down the power AND trying to steer at the same time, while a RWD car has "two people", one pushing the car, the other turning it. The FWD car is getting less work done less efficiently by understeering towards the outside of a corner, which is the opposite of turning into a corner and getting out of it faster. So tell him that unless he accepts that RWD > FWD, he shouldn't have the right to even own a car.
I've told him pretty much exactly that expect without the people sharing the work analogy yet he still thinks he's right. I told him that his idea only works if cars have infinite grip and even then they could go at the same speed. You just can't reason with some people! He's a sharp guy and knows his stuff which is why I'm so surprised that he even came up with this ridiculous notion; if it was from anyone else I would have just called them an idiot and left it at that.
FWD is not a true sports car. RWD is a true sports car. Give him a cookie when you tell him FWD handles better in snow than RWD. Then tell him the party is over when torque steer is awful
I don't think an 18 year old can afford any of these cars unless the parents are paying for the car or offering free rent, food, etc. Funny how people are willing to spend 20K on a new just average car, then spend 12K on a BMW with another 2K to 4K in maintenance and performance goodies and have a much better car. But then again we are in BMW heaven here at BMW CCA, so I guess we are just preaching to the choir here! I don't think I could ever go back to a FWD car again! The handling is just compromised. Too much weight in the front and they just look silly with that huge over hang out in front of the front wheels. I really like BMWs short front overhangs. Although they managed a short over hang with MINI, but again that is BMW for you! GR
I am sure the OP's parents would help him out with maintenance, insurance and fuel while he is at campus. If I were him, I would go with the 99 E39 540i/6. The E39 is probably the best all around BMW ever made IMHO. I'm only 5'7 160 lbs and the E39 feels just right for me. I can haul Peyton anywhere in it and he stays awake. Funny how he falls asleep in the E46
Too hard to find one in good condition. At least for cheap, anyway. Besides, it's underpowered, as you yourself said.
Because a 2002 doesn't deserve to be parked at a college campus and be driven everyday. How would you feel if he got a nice, pristine 2002tii and in the wee hours of the night/morning some drunk college punk decides to puke on the tii?!?! Not good .
Those are two of the dumbest anti-FWD rationales I've ever heard. FWIW, many FWD cars are easily as balanced as RWD BMWs. OTOH, the forward weight bias is actually better for FWD traction. I take it you've never autocrossed, raced, or driven a really good FWD car, like a GTi, Civic Si, or BMW's own MINI. I have driven a couple of very good ones (and even autocrossed one for a couple of seasons) that had incipient oversteer, so they do not all plow like pigs. Only the most common ones do that. Objectively, there are so many different factors involved in cornering speed that there is no real definitive way to decide whether FWD or RWD works better. What is true is that AWD trumps them both, but that's another story. What we probably can say is that, as traction gets worse, FWD becomes the better layout for the job, and vice versa. Cornering well with RWD depends to a certain extent on power oversteer and, in low traction situations, that spells 'spins' unless you really know what you're doing (like former ice racer Tommy Archer in a Trans Am car in the rain). As for the overhang, only older Audis and a few other odd exceptions with inline engines forward of the axle require that. Otherwise, it is purely the designer's choice how much car there is in front of the front wheels. Even some of those Audis look long in the front only because they're particularly short in the rear: What do you think of the Jaguar X-Type? I know it has less 'nose' than my E28 and probably no more than any recent 3 Series. Does it look "silly" to you?
I think the X-type looks silly no matter how you look at it, and think that it's good riddance to the X-type with the XF relacement.
Ah, Yes, the X-Type is ugly and looks like a really expensive Ford Taurus, oh wait, that is exactly what it is! No wonder they can't sell them. I have driven an Si and MINI Cooper S. The MINI is a great car and I would not mind owning one, but I just don't like FWD. Sorry I didn't rationalize it to your standards! Look at an E36, it has almost as little over hang as a MINI. I just like that look. Audis IMHO do not age very well. They look good when new, but as the design gets old, it just looks old. Compare almost any older Audi to it's contemporary BMW, the Audi just looks older. GR
I have driven GTis, Civic Si, and the MINI, and can say that front wheel drive cars tend suffer horribly from a compromise due to the drivetrain layout. They are all, without exception nose heavy. Unless the engine sits on top of the gearbox ala older Saabs, there is, by necessity, a bunch of engine hanging in front of the wheels. Then there is torque steer with any front wheel drive car of reasonably high power (say, over 150HP or so) and the traction circle. A tire has only so much traction to give, and when it is faced with cornering, braking, and steering, instead of only 2 of the 3, the result is usually understeer. Rear wheel drive cars do require more skill to drive when conditions are poor, for sure. If you have good car control skills, though, RWD > FWD. Often, the understeer that FWD cars exhibit is inherent to their design and can be mitigated only with great changes to overall car design or suspension changes that have negative NVH and tire wear impacts. The under or oversteer that a RWD car exhibits is either due to poor design, or it is actually intentionally dialed in. BMW does intentionally make their cars understeer vs. oversteer because drivers feel more comfortable when they sense loss of grip through plowing vs. spinning. Neutral handling is better, but some drivers cannot handle the lack of feedback at the limit. That all said, well designed AWD>RWD>FWD
Paul: Once you start your BMW 700 project, what kind of motor are you going to put in it? Will it be a more modern BMW Motorcycle boxer motor? You could put some serious power into that car with some of BMW's more recent Motorcycle engines! GR
